To replace with Carp?

[Chen rossii]

If carp have a value then do you replace with carp?


Grand Island's kill one of largest on record By Tracy Overstreet
tracy.overstreet@theindependent.com
The killing of more than 10,000 fish last month because of water pollution from Grand Island was one of the most substantial human-induced kills in Nebraska.
"It is one of the largest on record," said Brian McManus, spokesman for the Nebraska Department of Environmental Quality.
McManus said there are three other major human-induced fish kills that occurred in the last 15 years.
In July 2006, more than 10,000 fish valued at $7,220 were killed in 15 miles of the Salt Creek near Roca. The fish died from exposure to ammonia, but the cause of the ammonia was never determined, McManus said.
In March 1995, hog waste discharged into the south fork of the Swan River near Tobias killed fish valued at $970. The kill stretched across more than 11 miles of river, he said.
Hog waste also caused the most prolific number of fish killed in 1993. More than 50,000 fish in eight miles of Spring Creek by Ruskin died. Although the fish numbers were high, the majority of the fish were small minnows and had a total value of $4,826.
DEQ field specialist Dave Bubb said hog waste in a river is fairly easy to trace back to its source.
"The river turns red," he said from bacteria in the waste that has a red cast.
Grand Island's pollution traced back to the city's wastewater treatment plant and meatpacker JBS Swift & Co. caused the killing of 10,626 fish last month. Bubb said the oxygen level in the water was exceptionally low and likely suffocated the fish in the water.
The majority of the killed fish nearly 9,000 were carp with an estimated value of $10,440. The total final value of the fish that were killed is still being calculated by the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission. Officials from DEQ and Game and Parks said Grand Island's kill, caused by a March 28 discharge, occurred over 24 miles of waterway. It included one-quarter mile of the city's wastewater treatment plant outfall ditch, 16.6 miles of the Wood River and 7.5 miles of the Platte River. McManus said natural fish kills also occur from time to time. Most recently was the loss of 15 tons of fish estimated to total 20,000 to 30,000 in number at the Kearney water retention structure near the south edge of Kearney. That kill happened due to the shallow water being iced over for an extended period of time, which depleted oxygen in the water.

[OldBaldGuy]

Grand Island carp: $10,440 divided by 9,000 fish = $1.16 per fish

Two Rivers trout: $4 tag good for 4 fish = $1.00 per fish

Even though I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, something seems wrong with this math.

[TheDude]

I'm with OBG, how is a carp worth that much if anything.

And, how exactly do they determine the value of a "trash" fish such as that. I could understand if 9000 LMB or any other game fish died, you could then multiply the numbers by the average price for replacing them from a hatchery, but Carp? Seems to me the price of replacing carp in a fishery would be the price of a can or corn and the gas to transport those terds from one body of water to another. That could potentially be as much as $23!

*NOTE: I do not advocate the dumping of waste in order to clean out Carp.

[sqwidbrain]

Now when we were kids , Dad would have us get carp out of the creek by our house and we used them for fertilizer in the garden. Maybe rising fertilizer costs are to blame?

[Chasin 'eyes]

They have to put some type of value on them to create the fine. Really, does it matter what the cost is - they should tear a mud hole in Swift's A**. We have limited creeks, rivers, and lakes with healthy fish with out having someone put sewage into it. It should not matter what type of fish it is, there should be a set fine per fish killed. $5-$10 a fish, that might deter dumping instead of $1.16 a fish(10000x 1.16 =11,600 or 10,000 x $10 = 100,000) which will get their attention more?!?!?! By the way, what were the other 1,626 fish species flatheads, channels, bass, etc.............. It is the whole point of dumping not what species it was no matter if it was mainly Carp.

[adammd]

Originally Posted by TheDude

I'm with OBG, how is a carp worth that much if anything.

And, how exactly do they determine the value of a "trash" fish such as that.

You determine it like anything else, take it to the market and sell it for what people are willing to pay. One Iowa fishery alone processes over 10 million pounds of carp and other rough fish per year. B/c it doesn't have a value for stocking doesn't mean they are not of any value.

[BoB_25]

How about 2 cents????

[Brillzz]

They had 10,600 fish of which 9,000 were carp. From what I've read I believe they valued the carp at .40 per pound. So, that's why you have the amount of money for the fine I do believe.

[Harold]

Most recently was the loss of 15 tons of fish estimated to total 20,000 to 30,000 in number at the Kearney water retention structure near the south edge of Kearney. That kill happened due to the shallow water being iced over for an extended period of time, which depleted oxygen in the water.

No, the kill happened because the land owner was allowed to "dam" the inflow to the popular fishing pond, which made the silted pond susceptible to low oxygen levels, and subsequent winter kill.

I ass-u-me they had authorization to isolate the pond.

H-F-E

[BoB_25]

Originally Posted by Brillzz

They had 10,600 fish of which 9,000 were carp. From what I've read I believe they valued the carp at .40 per pound. So, that's why you have the amount of money for the fine I do believe.

Thats how i read it. Brillzz did you stay at a Holiday Inn

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Harold

No, the kill happened because the land owner was allowed to "dam" the inflow to the popular fishing pond, which made the silted pond susceptible to low oxygen levels, and subsequent winter kill.

I ass-u-me they had authorization to isolate the pond.

H-F-E

Harold, I believe there were two fish kills in GI recently. One at the movie theater, and this one. Were you talking about the movie theater one?

[Willie Boy]

Originally Posted by OldBaldGuy

Grand Island carp: $10,440 divided by 9,000 fish = $1.16 per fish

Two Rivers trout: $4 tag good for 4 fish = $1.00 per fish

Even though I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, something seems wrong with this math.

check with the guys at the state...there's very likely a length to value scale involved here...it's not just 'a fish is a fish'...but the value to raise a fish to a certain length, I'm thinking...

Personally, that number should potentially be doubled...for stupidity...

[LASTCRAWLER]

Let me preface my comments by saying in general this is not acceptable and I do not want to make light of what has occurred. But........

I am sorry,they are carp.

The correct math should be Carp = -.02 In this particular case it appears we should be cutting swift a check for about $209.00

When I was young and grew up at the intersection of the frechman and republican rivers out west. Kugler chemical plant was at Culbertson. We were always in the river chasin carp or canoeing. One day we noticed the sandbars below Kuglers were covered with white pellets that looked and smelled like moth balls. I could never forget that day. I have later found out that these pellets were acutally ( more than likely) cyanide pellets. I so wish I would have known then what I know now. It didn't seem to effect the fish, but I wonder what effects playing in the water might have done to me?

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Mako

Harold, I believe there were two fish kills in GI recently. One at the movie theater, and this one. Were you talking about the movie theater one?

I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Daryl B.

This most recent kill was near Grand Island. The earlier one was in a little mud hole, pond, isolated off of the Kearney canal in Kearney.

Daryl B.

P.S. Feel free to share this message with others.

Thanks Daryl!

[Harold]

The earlier one was in a little mud hole, pond, isolated off of the Kearney canal in Kearney.

This little "mud hole" has produce many 15+ inch crappie, edible sized walleye, and a State Record sucker that the angler refused to have entered as he didn't want his name associated with the "award". (Still don't understand that) in the last COUPLE years.

I'm certainly NOT questioning the damming of the access flow, the pond was definately in the "done-for" stage. But I'm surprised at the reaction of the results.

If proper "permission" was given to block the inflow, wouldn't it be "natural" to consider the results of that action?

H-F-E

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Harold

This little "mud hole" has produce many 15+ inch crappie, edible sized walleye, and a State Record sucker that the angler refused to have entered as he didn't want his name associated with the "award". (Still don't understand that) in the last COUPLE years.

I'm certainly NOT questioning the damming of the access flow, the pond was definately in the "done-for" stage. But I'm surprised at the reaction of the results.

If proper "permission" was given to block the inflow, wouldn't it be "natural" to consider the results of that action?

H-F-E

Actually, from Daryl's response in this thread:

Fish Kill - Kearney

the NGPC wasn't surprised at all that a fish kill took place.

[OldBaldGuy]

I was neither defending polluters nor advocating a drastic increase in the price of trout tags at Two Rivers.

Apparently someone had done the math and arrived at a figure. My initial post in this thread was simply an awkward way of questioning how that someone had arrived at an answer.

For example, I value trout more than carp. I value bullheads more than carp. I even value largemouth bass more than carp (although primarily for their predation on bluegills). The story made me wonder if the state has some sort of sliding scale, based on species, for determining penalties.

I'd eagerly sign any petition to triple the fines on water polluters.

[OldBaldGuy]

Believe it or not, there is a protocol that is followed in fish kill investigations. In Nebraska the Department of Environmental Quality (NDEQ) monitors water quality. When a fish kill occurs NDEQ investigates to determine causes and potential violations. The Nebraska Game & Parks Commission involvement may be assistance in the investigation, but mostly we show up and count bodies, fish bodies. We will estimate the species, numbers and sizes of fish killed. Those estimates will be used in assessing damages.

So what is a fish worth? That is an excellent question. Of course you could see what the market value, what someone is willing to pay, would be for a 5-pound bass for example. But where are 5-pound bass being bought and sold? Are those live 5-pound bass that are being bought and sold?

There is a protocol that has been established by the American Fisheries Society for assessing monetary values and I believe that is one of the best estimates of the actual value of a fish. Those values are called replacement values--the cost of replacing a fish with another of equal size. If a 4-pound common carp was killed, what would be the cost of producing a 4-pound common carp to replace that fish? The replacement value of a 4-pound carp is listed by the American Fisheries Society at $0.39 per pound or $1.56 (those are 2003 figures, the most recent edition that I have in my office). For comparison, the replacement cost of a 10-inch catchable rainbow trout in the mountain/plains region (which includes Nebraska) would be $0.98; a 4-pound rainbow would have a replacement cost of $26.08.

Those are the values that are used in assessing damages. I think we would all agree that killing a bunch of fish due to some pollutant is not a natural phenomenon and society has determined that there will be fines and damages assessed in those instances. Are we going to replenish the river, replace, with common carp and other rough fish? Nope, probably not. As soon as the water can support those fish again, they will be on their way back (probably have started already), but there have been environmental damages done and this is the accepted protocol for placing a $$$$$ on those damages.

Now, since the topic has been brought up, this pointy-head is going to make another point. What is a fish worth? Have you ever stopped to think about that? What are those fish worth that you catch? What is the worth of those fish you haul home in your pickup? I have a quote on one of my bulletin boards, "Fishing is worth any amount of effort and any amount of expense to people who love it, because in the end you get such a large number of dreams per fish."--Ian Frazier in The Fish's Eye. Those of us who love to fish would agree with that statement, and would be hard-pressed to put a value on our fishing, what is it really worth to us? It is worth the world!

But follow along with this little exercise, let's use those replacement values to put some perspective on the fish we catch, the fish we harvest. How about whacking that 6-pound largemouth bass? In replacement costs that fish is worth $32.64. Or how about harvesting an 8-pound walleye?--$62.88. Or how about expecting to take a limit of 10-inch crappies home? 30 of them would add up to a replacement value of $63.00. So now, how good of a bargain is that $26.00 annual fishing permit? How many fish do you have to harvest before you realize your full $26.00 investment and then some? How many fish are you "entitled" to harvest?

I believe that is a useful exercise because it makes us stop and consider just how valuable those fish are. There is a real value that can be placed upon those fish, and I think realizing that develops a deeper appreciation for our fisheries resources.

Daryl Bauer
Lakes and Reservoirs Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@ngpc.ne.gov

P.S. Please feel free to share this message with others.

[flatwalter]

As a resident of Central City I would just like to chirp in on this also.

Any time that you live down stream from a major polluter you are concerned with the well being of your water source. How much of GI and Swift's pollutants are making their way into our water? The cost of the fish is minimal if it is in fact going to effect those of us in Merrick County.

The loss of fish is a warning not the end. Big GI and Big Swift vs little people down stream. Thanks to the EPA and G & P we know who the polluters are and a possible fine may slow them down. The last four or five times has not slowed them at all.

[cabbry]

As far as I am concerned, $100,000 fine is more reasonable considering the depth o the pockets involved. Carp or trout killed does not matter. Damage to the ecosystem is the real value here. Stick it to em NGP and EPA! Make em buy, clean, wrap, weigh and deliver those carp.